I am kicking off what will be a series of  talks with key players in the rapidly emerging augmented reality industry with an interview with Ori Inbar, co-founder of Ogmento. For Ori’s full bio see here.  Ori not only has a passion for interactive entertainment and a commitment to developing augmented reality to, “free young and old from getting lost in front of the screen.” Ori also, as I noted in the intro to my first conversation with Ori in May, brings invaluable experience to the young augmented reality industry because he has already gone through the cycle of working in a very small start-up and growing it into a billion dollar business. Ori worked with Shai Agassi (Shai is now leading the world changing Better Place ) driving Netweaver from a mere concept to a “major, major business for SAP.”

I have been tracking developments in Augmented Reality pretty carefully since my post, “Is it OMG finally for Augmented Reality?: Interview with Robert Rice.” And I talked at length to Blair McIntyre on Mobile Augmented Reality and Mirror Worlds recently. These interviews, and my first conversation with Ori, are long in depth conversations. But, if you haven’t already read them and you want the full story, they may be a good place to start.

As Ori notes, the Google trend on Augmented Reality is really growing exponentially at this point, and recently there have been two high profile round ups in the New York Times here,  and one in Venture Beat here.

Ori comments (for more see full interview below):

“What was unique about the article in Venture Beat is that it was probably the first roundup of Augmented Reality companies. It wasn’t very comprehensive or detailed, but it might be a sign that VCs are getting interested in AR companies.”

I feel that now is an excellent time for a detailed and comprehensive series of interviews on the state of play for augmented reality. I hope to speak with all eight founders of the AR Consortium, Int13, Metaio, Mobilizy, Neogence Enterprises, Ogmento, SPRXmobile, Tonchidot, and Total Immersion. The recent founding of the AR Consortium focused on facilitation of, “faster market penetration, robust technical standards, and a strong focus on the end-user’s experience,” is an important development for augmented reality.

Ogmento co-founder, Ori Inbar, created augmented reality’s trail blazing blog, Games Alfresco, and Pookatak Games – now Ogmento.  Ogmento will bring out their first augmented reality game for the iphone later this summer.  But Ogmento also brings two important new facets to the rapidly growing augmented reality field. One is that Ogmento brings leadership from veterans of the entertainment industry into augmented reality development  – Brian Selzer and Brad Foxhoven from Blockade have partnered with Ori on Ogmento.  The other, a very exciting announcement from Ogmento, is that they will be acting as publishers for a fast growing cohort of augmented reality application developers. Ori explains, Ogmento will be helping, “AR development teams out there bring their concepts to the market.”

The emergence of a savvy publisher for augmented reality developers is a vital step forward for this emerging industry.  As Ori notes in the interview below:

“recognizing elements on product packaging, posters, games will kick off a frenzy of new consumer experiences before the end of the year mobile AR will take the center stage. Next year will be huge for these experiences.”

The first commercial and practical toolsets, SDKs, and APIs developers wishing to create AR experiences have emerged including AR engines with key development tools for markerless image recognition like Imagination and SRengine Lite (for more see these posts on The Future Digital Life and Games Alfresco).  Also the pioneering and the most used AR engine out there, ARTookit, now has a version for the iPhone. And Metaio has produced a powerful  modular development tool kit, Unifeye.  Wikitude (Mobilizy) and Layar (SPRXmobile) have caused a lot of excitement recently with applications that unlock the potential for a wide range of augmented reality browsing experiences. Notably, they have both opened up developer APIs for their mobile augmented reality platforms in the last couple of weeks (although Layar is only providing “50 developer keys to interested companies across the globe,” whereas the Wikitude World Browser APIs are open to all). Maarten Lens-FitzGerald explained:

“There will be more keys distributed by Layar.  We are starting with a small amount to make sure that the servers will be able to handle it. Biggest difference is that the Layar API is aimed at Business to Business market: Companies and or developers with major brands or other content and services which are relevant for the new AR world. They are able to get their own branded experience in Layar”

Wikitude, however, has introduced the vital component of user generated content. With Wikitude.me you can add your own tags now.

I just added my first tag to Wikitude.me and twittered from TweetDeck:

“Signed up for Wikitude.me today, very cool the world as a wikipedia platform.”

click on image above to watch the video

I have interviewed both Mark A. M. Kramer, Mobilizy and Maarten Lens-FitzGerald, Sprxmobile, for this series so I will be posting more on Wikitude and Layar soon. See Wikitude’s “World Browser” press release and video for more, and the video here for read here more about Layar.   I was very chuffed to hear from Maarten Lens-FitzGerald of Sprxmobile the other day that my Interview with Robert Rice, in January of this year, was a key inspiration for SPRXmobile to get started on the development of Layar.  I hope this series of interviews and the arrival of a world class augmented reality publishing team, Ogmento, will be the inspiration for many more game changing augmented reality projects.

Robert Rice (who founded the AR Consortium with Ori) is a key innovator in the field who is tackling some of the really hard problems of AR development. While we will have to wait until ISMAR in October to see demos of Robert’s AR platform, Robert explained in my interview with him (to be posted soon):

“I guess you could say that we are trying to build a platform for platforms, or more accurately the infrastructure for the global augmented reality network. If Neogence does its job right, anything you create using ARtoolkit, Unifeye, or Imagination would be applications you could link to, integrate with, or deploy on what we are building, and not be tied to a specific set of hardware, browser, or walled garden.”

Augmented Reality and the Next Generation of Compelling Interactive Entertainment Experiences

Ogmento and the partnership of  Brian Selzer and Brad Foxhoven from Blockade with Ori Inbar is a very significant development for Augmented Reality.  I am very excited to be discussing Augmented Reality with Entertainment Industry veterans (interviews with Brian and Brad upcoming soon). Here is an excerpt from the beginning of my conversation with Brian.

“My first conversation with Ori was actually about my interest in Location Based RPG concepts. We had a long conversation about the possibilities with AR, and it was clear that we shared similar interests, but we’re coming from different complementary backgrounds. The idea of collaboration was exciting, so we just kept talking until the timing felt right. Now, with Ogmento we bring a unique blend of AR development experience with a deep backgrounds in AR technology, animation, video games, entertainment, social media, etc. I think this is a powerful mix that will allow us to do some great things.

It’s still so early, and things are just getting started in AR. There are only so many webcam magic tricks you can enjoy before you are ready for something else.

The location-based apps have the most potential in my opinion, which is why we are really focused on mobile AR. We have some board-game type projects, which do not instantly scream location-based gaming, but if you look at  something like the ARhrrr board game [for more see my interview with Blair McIntyre here], you can see how much more compelling it can be when the game invites the player to be actively moving around during the experience.”

Talking with Ori Inbar

Tish Shute: First I really want to catch up with you on your new venture – Ogmento.

Ori Inbar: It’s basically an evolutionary step. A little bit about Ogmento, I partnered with a couple of very strong veterans of the entertainment industry from LA, and we want to do two key things. One is develop augmented reality applications and games; and two, which is becoming really interesting lately, is to help AR development teams out there bring their concepts to the market.

Tish Shute: Your new partners are Brian Selzer and Brad Foxhoven. Are they both from Blockade?

Ori Inbar: Brad and Brian are both from Blockade and are leveraging their contacts and deep knowledge of entertainment companies and big brands they worked with over the years.

Tish: Sounds great to have a team like this getting into AR! How will you work with developers? Will you help them market their AR applications?

Ori: Exactly. In parallel to my blog becoming popular, it seems there’s a lot of activity picking up in the AR space. People are reaching out to us and are asking asking for help. So we started actually making that a part of our business. We help connect them with the right technologies if they need it or connect them with the right brands or companies and strategize with them on how to go to market and help publish their applications or games. So that’s becoming an exciting part of what we do.

Tish: It seems that great content rather than applications is going to be what drives the early AR market. What is your direction/vision for content development and what technologies are you focusing on: In my recent discussion with Robert Rice he asked the question: “The iphone…future or failure? With a seemingly anti-developer stance regarding augmented reality, and only a sliver of the global market share, are we letting the short term glitz of Apple and the iPhone fad pull us in the wrong direction? Shouldn’t we be focusing on Symbian devices that have the lion’s share of the market? or should we be looking more at either other OSs (winmobile, android) or not at all and trying to create a new platform that is more MID and less smart phone with a hardware partner?”

Ori: I can tell you that we’re now being inundated with requests for projects from all angles. Either from big brands, independent entertainment companies, all and everything in between. In terms of the hype it’s curving up. More and more people are hearing about it. In a sense we’re moving from a very strong push to a little pull. We’re starting to see some pull from people asking for development of AR projects.

In terms of technologies, what platforms to use? At this point we’re very open to picking the right technology, the right platform for each project. For example: Wikitude, or Layar, could be good for certain types of experiences, but they do not visually recognize elements in real life. So for that purpose you’ll need technologies from other folks like ARtoolkit or Imagination. We are basically picking the right tool for each job.

Tish: What distinguishes Imagination from ARtoolkit?

Ori: Imagination have been doing virtual reality and augmented reality for years now. They probably have the best augmented reality engine for mobile devices. It’s the only engine built from the ground up for mobile.

Tish: What about this whole issue of most of the world being Symbian and the U.S. being iPhone and possibly moving somewhat towards Android?

Ori: That’s right. We’re currently focusing on the iPhone because it’s the coolest out there and fits our target audiences perfectly, and there’s a pretty good market here in the U.S. which is currently our main target market. But you’re right, it could change tomorrow, when another major platform becomes popular. Another thing is that is attractive about the iPhone is that all of the iPhones are the same (although it’s now changing with the 3G-S). It’s very easy to develop an application and distribute it to 40 million people. But if you’re going into the Symbian market or Windows Mobile, it’s a nightmare. It’s not just the technical aspect of testing the app on all these devices but also the distribution challenge. Apparently there’s just no simple channel to distribute it across these various versions of these platforms.

Tish: That’s what stopped mobile gaming taking off until the iPhone wasn’t it.

Ori: Absolutely.

Tish: So this Austrian AR engine, Imagination, it must be for Symbian too, is it?

Ori: They have an augmented reality engine that works on P.C. webcam, Symbian, Windows Mobile, and now in the iPhone. You write the application once and theoretically it runs on all these platforms.

Tish: Any interesting development showing up on Imagination yet, or is it too early?

Ori: Our first game that we discussed [see my previous interview with Ori here] is actually going to be based on that engine.

Tish: Your game for pre-schoolers that we discussed before? What’s the release date for that?

Ori: We said it’s going to be released this summer and that’s still the plan, but it depends a little bit on Apple. You’ll be among the first to know when it’s in the app store.

Tish: It seems at the moment the two main forms of AR are mainly tethered or marker experiences or kind of stepping stone apps like Wikitude and Layar that are markerless but mainly pull info from web to world rather than truly aligning graphics in a tight relationship to the “real” world. Although what differentiates Wikitude from Layar is that you can actually create content with Wikitude.me and add your own tags now. When are we going to see something that goes beyond the tethered experience and the “browsing” experience and get to the magic of AR in terms of tightly aligning media/graphics with real world objects?

Ori: That’s right. That’s one difference between Layar and Wikitude. Another is that Wikitude is actually being used across the world by what is it now 160,000 or 200,000 people and Layar only works in the Netherlands for the moment. That’s a big difference. But things are changing rapidly.

But there are a lot of new AR concepts being developed out there (and we are fortunate to be working with some of them).

We’ll still see many webcam campaigns for another year or so, but recognizing elements on product packaging, posters, games will kick off a frenzy of new consumer experiences before the end of the year mobile AR will take the center stage. Next year will be huge for these experiences.

But to address your question, you’re going to see two different types of apps. One is the so called browsers like Wikitude and Layar, which actually doesn’t comply with the scientific definition of augmented reality in the sense that you have to align graphics with real life objects (Azuma).

Tish: Wikitude and Layar are not the purist idea of AR and technically should they really claim the title “browser”?

Ori: Right. But I don’t think it really matters to users that find these apps useful. The second type of apps you’re going to see in parallel are those which recognize markers or natural images and soon any real life object – and overlay on top of computer graphics. I believe we’ll see more and more of that towards the end of the year.

Tish: And you think Imagination really does give people an engine that allows them to do image recognition more easily?

Ori: Yes absolutely. They do. We’re using it. Right now it’s not an official SDK, but pretty soon they’ll open it up and more and more people will be able to take advantage of it.

Tish: When do you think they’ll open it up?

Ori: You’ll have to ask them But there’s also the ARtoolkit – the most used AR engine out there, which now has a version for the iPhone. They also have a version that can track images, but it’s still not running on the iPhone. It’s going to take some time until these, as well as the products from Metaio, and other folks are going to catch up with them.

Tish: I want to ask you about the Cartoon Network AR campaign? I didn’t get a chance to look at it before I spoke to you. It’s still a tethered experience I think but there is a “next generation AR” claim?

Ori: I think in terms of the experience it’s trying to take it a bit further than what we’ve seen so far by creating an actual game. But you are still tethered to a PC screen which is not significantly different than playing a 3D game on a PC.

Tish: Then the other thing is did you get a chance to play with the iPhone video API? Is it accessible now? I noticed your blog on this.

Ori: It’s under NDA with Apple so we cannot really talk about the details. But it seems like it’s doing only half of what we need for AR. It’ll be useful for applications like Wikitude but not when you want to align graphics with live video.

But I’m pretty sure it’s going to happen soon and there’s no reason why it shouldn’t… It’s just that Apple’s policy is to never reveals their plans. We don’t know when it’s going to happen.

Tish: You basically think we’re going to have to be very flexible because it seems as a developer the iPhone is obviously the only place to get easily to a market. But in terms of developer you do have to make some serious decisions and there are some interesting MIDs and new Android platforms coming out aren’t there?

Ori: Last year I thought MIDs would make a big difference in the AR world but they didn’t. Not in terms of adoption and not in terms of the number of MIDs that we expected to be released this year. Some companies are trying to resurrect it for next year… or later this year. I think the high price is going to be a barrier for adoption.

Tish: The economic climate hasn’t been good for it. Which bring up another question, now that people are really catching on to AR, should there be a partnership with the hardware people to get some of the hardware that really will make AR rock n roll moving e.g. accurate gps (Robert mentioned to me the idea of creating pseudolites = ground based differential GPS with <10cm accuracy hotspot say in partnership with Starbucks, for example).  And it seems to be that there definitely needs to be an eyeware push now we have seen close but not yet perfect prototypes from companies like Vuzix and Lumus. Will Ogmento,’cos you are going to be involved in lots of cool projects focusing on content, partner with the hardware people and get it moving along in that area?

Ori: That’s absolutely right. For ISMAR this year we’re planning some panel discussions with industry leaders as well as hardware companies to define the ideal mobile  device for augmented reality. These discussions are already happening. But I don’t think companies like Intel and others are paying enough attention to it just because they don’t see the demand yet. I believe that with more content and apps in the market, they’ll realize they can’t wait any longer and will accelerate their decision process and act.

Tish: But it does seem to me – one would have to be an Ostrich not to have noticed the excitement that relatively trivial Augmented Reality apps have stirred up. It’s something that people get is a cool and engaging experience and right away they like it. Although we haven’t seen a popular game yet have we?

Ori: Exactly. It’s gaining mindshare but it’s still very low on most people’s radar and there’s no market right now. You can’t even size the market. Before they invest a lot in this concept they’ll want to see some ROI.

Tish: So that’s the plan then. You’re basically hoping at Ogmento to make some popular iPhone apps? That’s really the first step?

Ori: Yes. That’s true. That’s what we think is going to trigger the other parts of the industry to contribute and to invest.

Tish: Right. Because ultimately a partnership between content and hardware – each enables investment and ROI in the other, its a synergistic combo. You need the big content to push the hardware companies, and you need the hardware to get the really dynamic content.

Ori: You are so right. It’s multiple elements in the industry that have to come together. You have the technology companies like Imagination and Metaio, then you have content companies like what we’re trying to do; the hardware vendors and the large content providers. Those brands that we’re trying to go after and educate them about the potential of AR. All these pieces need to come together for this market to ignite.

Tish: So is Ogmento talking to major content franchise owners or are they coming to you?

Ori: It’s both ways actually. Mostly we’re still educating. That’s one piece of the puzzle, the other piece is connecting them with various AR developers out there who have great ceoncepts, but don’t have the expertise or connections to market it.

Tish: So Ogmento acts as an agency for them or how would you describe it?

Ori: It’s more of a publisher-developer relationship. Similar to the gaming industry where you have game developers and publishers.

Tish: At the minute are you working with any particular team or are you still in the early stages with that?

Ori: We have several projects in the early stages. Follow us on Ogmento.com or Games Alfresco to see the progress with these projects in the future.

Tish: Have you had seen anyone coming up with good ideas for a Green Tech AR application? Seems that visualizing emissions and carbon footprint for everything in our lives would be a big step forward in taking action to make the changes we need to avert a climate catastrophe – seeing is believing!!

Ori: Not really yet. I was kind of playing with this idea (see my previous interview with Ori here) about that but the technology wasn’t really ready for this kind of application. I think that when it happens this will be a very important area.

click the image above to see video

Tish: I was thinking if we could organize a prize, for development of really good Green Tech AR apps. that would help.  It is early for Green Tech AR because it really involves a level of instrumentation and visualization/alignment of media with nearby objects  that is hard to do at the moment (although the necessary instrumentation is on its way to becoming ubiquitous – see Google’s Android to invade homes and Touch Revolution household Android devices coming this year). And smart energy monitoring like Current Cost is already widely available in the UK.  AMEE – the world’s energy meter is integrated with Pachube and can be used to calculate the carbon footprint of a Pachube feed that is monitoring some kind of energy consumption.  And many people are interested (see Tom Raftery’s Green Monk post here) in this kind of application that will really advance the usability of much Green Tech. So we have some ground work for a competition already!  Particularly, I think, if the competition focuses on a target instrumented environment.

[Note: Pachube has produced a really nice augmented reality demo (see video above) where 3D Pachube visualisation data is overlayed in realtime ‘on top’ of Arduino sensor boxes around their office. The demo  “features the Pachube office carbon footprint wall with chalk-drawn augmented reality marker, for Dennou-Coil-style space-hacking.” The code is written in c++ using openFrameworks, ArToolKit and the ofxPachube library and is being cleaned up for public release soon.  As the Pachube team notes, this “could provide an easy way to inspect rooms (or streets) full of sensor and environment data via a camera (e.g. iPhone)… or even AR goggles!]

Ori: Yes a prize is a good idea!

Tish: What do you think would be a reasonable sum to get the right kind of developers into that?

Ori: I think fifty thousand is the minimum. Or a publishing deal.

Tish: $50,000 is the minimum. And how would you offer it?

Ori: A cash prize for the first place and a little bit less for the second and third.

Tish: I’ll start talking to people. Maybe Ogmento could help adjudicate it, if we can find a way to raise the prize money, would you be willing to help run a competition?

Ori: We would love to. Just like we discussed before, it’s a matter of understanding the  current technical limitations, and then designing something that works within those limitations and delivering an added value.

Tish: What have been the most exciting things that you’ve seen since we’ve last talked. What are the things that got you going wow this is moving forward?

Ori: First If you just looked at the Google trend on Augmented Reality, it has the right curve. It’s really growing exponentially at this point. Also I really like a couple of articles just last week, one in the New York Times and one in Venture Beat. What was unique about the article in Venture Beat is that it was probably the first roundup of Augmented Reality companies. It wasn’t very comprehensive or detailed, but it might be a sign that VCs are getting interested in AR companies.

Tish: Yes.

And, in a way AR is perfect because it’s suited to the kind of level of investment that people are interested in right now – relatively small scale investment. And what’s good about particularly say iPhone apps, you can do a lot with relatively little can’t you?

Ori: Yeah, I agree. But to answer your question, I think the most exciting thing that is happening is the (small) swarm of AR developers popping up in various corners of the world and are looking to bring their ideas and products to the market. I think that’s unique and we haven’t seen it until this year.

Tish: Why are we seeing most things coming out of Europe like Layer, Wikitude, Imagination?

Ori: It’s a true statement. You know what? I have no idea why. I really don’t know.

Tish: Is there anything special coming out of Silicon Valley that’s normally leading the field in these kind of things?

Ori: I can’t say, but at least…there’s Ogmento!

Tish: Yes! There is Ogmento. Right. But it is interesting isn’t it? I think I know the answer to my own question. It’s because mobile culture is very well developed in Europe and this is springing out of mobile culture.

Ori: There is another important initiative from the US – the AR consortium which Robert Rice and I have recently launched…

Tish: Oh yes I must ask you about that. And Robert’s been really working hard on the big problems of full on AR- massively multiplayer, 3D, virtual goods market, tight alignment of media/ graphics with real world objects, partnerships to move the hardware forward – eyeware etc.  I know he has some exciting demos planned for ISMAR 2009,  it’s just that he’s still under the radar.

Ori: Robert is going after the hard problems, which is good.

Tish: It is great. Actually  I just spoke to him today and it seems like he’s a few months off being able to show us something. He is working hard to push the hardware forward.

Ori: I think he is and he’s probably targeting existing platforms.

Tish: Which is were we get back to the snake biting the tail – great content need good hardware and hardware investment comes from seeing great content.  What does the current crop of AR browsers have to do to take it to the next level?

Ori: I think what they’re doing right now is a very good first step. Which is opening it up just like Wikitude and Layar. It’s kind of what made a difference for Facebook versus other social networks and for Twitter as well. Their approach as a platform is what made it so huge. The other step which Wikitude is doing with wikitude.me is allowing people everwhere to tag the world.

Tish: They’re the first who are doing that so far.

Ori: There were other attempts to provide ways to tag the world, but I think Wikitude is the first that is actually available on a global scale.

Tish: Have you had a chance to try out Google Wave yet – do you see some potential for some interesting AR integrations with Wave? I think Wave may be a big game changer in real time communication, if it gets mass adoption. It basically makes the web like a videogame – bringing a real time many participant shared interaction to the web. I have been exploring in the sandbox and there are some interesting possibilities for role playing games. It’s completely open so it could be integrated into an AR project.

Ori: I am going to have to look into Wave in the next few days.

Tish: So what should we look out for from Ogmento in the next few months? What do you want to develop next?

Ori: I have given some hints above – you’ll have to stay tuned to discover…

Nathan Freitas holding a Peek with Oliver+Coady partner David Oliver talking to fans at New York Tech Meetup – Mobile Meets Social

Volunteerism and participation in public life seem to come naturally to Nathan Freitas. Nathan is one of the leading innovators/developers in NYC in mobile strategy/design (for more on his Android development read on). And he is much in demand as speaker who shows others how to realize their mobile experience and design dreams (for upcoming speaking engagements see Nathan’s blog). But also Nathan has spent much of the last ten years working on new ways for causes and non profits to benefit from technology.

Most recently Nathan has started working part time for the NY Senate under, “Albany’s King Geek,” the new CIO Andrew Hoppin:

“The CIO team is organizing training sessions for senators and their staff on social networking platforms and how to pay attention to online feedback. Last week, they hired mobile specialist Nathan Freitas to create new phone applications that will allow citizens to get government news on the go.”

Also, Nathan is currently supporting engineer on, The Extraordinaries, a smart phone application that explores territory “beyond the flattening tendency of online relationships” (see this list from Andy Oram of the Questions on Government participation).  The Extraordinaries is Ben Rigby and Jacob Colker’s prize winning project  – “a smartphone application that delivers volunteer opportunities on-demand.”

Ben’s post, Information Age Volunteerism – Open Sourced! Crowdsourced! and the extensive comments give a detailed analysis and critique of this brilliant and creative new approach to volunteersim in the information age.

Nathan, in my view, is a great example of how to “do well by doing good.” And, I am particularly excited by the work Nathan and his partner in Oliver+Coady, David Oliver, are doing on Android, e.g., Nathan’s new gReporter – opensource, geotagging, media capture report client (you can download the source here).

I first met Nathan when I interviewed him about Cruxy in 2007 (see my post, The Mixed Reality Metarati and “Destroy TV:”  Merging Art, Technology, Politics and Play).  Nathan recently announced that “the fat lady has just uploaded her last song.” Cruxy was an innovative distributed music venture Nathan started with Jon Oakes.  Although, as Nathan explains, Cruxy “never really broke through in the way we hoped.” Nevertheless Cruxy seems to have been a fertile garden for ideas that are coming of age in Oliver-Coady’s current mobile experience endeavors.  As Nathan explains, “the world, including Apple and iTunes, has shifted to embrace some of the ideals we have always had – open formats, more ways to distribute and promote online, more avenues for niche content to be discovered and heard.” Cruxy’s technology platform, built by the incomparable Will Meyer:

“was a great success in my mind, being one of the first to fully embrace Amazon’s cloud and provide a widget-based commerce system that actually worked!”

Nathan has a new company, Oliver+Coady. But Nathan told me that he feels he is over his “start up phase.”

Nathan Freitas: I am just tired of the term “startup.” I’m more interested in being defined as person than a member of a corporation. Also I am more interested in the ideas of cooperatives, and have been working on this idea (see here for more on the New York Creative Cooperative ).

Tish Shute: You do a high percentage of non profit work. Are you still managing to keep the home fires burning in the economic downturn?

Nathan Freitas: There is definitely profit to be made in non-profits because even if you only get paid half of what you get for corporate work, it is worth it in terms of fulfillment, ego, respect, and general contribution back to the planet. However, I’ve also been investing time & energy w/o pay into thinking about how causes can benefit from technology for over ten years. So its not just something you decide to do one day, and suddenly are successful.

Tish Shute: What are some of the highlights of your non profit work recently?

Nathan: Well, The Extraordinaries project is definitely a highlight. It is focused on a whole new approach to volunteering and winning the first prize at the WeMedia Conference for the non-profit tech category was a great validation of the work. I am just a supporting engineer on the effort, which was founded by my good friend Ben Rigby (a longtime non-profit tech guy as well) and Jacob Colker.

Ben wrote this excellent book on mobile tech and organizing, Mobilizing Generation 2.0 He’s done a ton of mobile work with youth voters via his non-profit, Mobile Voter.

The Extraordinaries is really taking all of our joint experience and putting it into a whole new system that is meant to go beyond generic email blasts that just ask you to “send a fax” or “send a link”. it gives people specific tasks they can accomplish on their phone or in their local area using their phone.

Tish: Did you do Twitter Vote Report with Ben too?

Nathan: Oh, no, Twitter Vote Report was with a different group of folks…mostly east coast-based, organized by the TechPresident.com blog. But Ben and I worked on SMS efforts for the 2004 election. We sent 40,000 messages out to SEIU labor members and MoveOn members… really the first time SMS was used in a wide-scale manner to help get out the vote on election day.

Tish: Do you have a new mobilization project planned?

Nathan: Its all about The Extraordinaries right now. We’ve got a big launch coming in June, and are working actively to add more causes that can benefit from volunteers and organizations that have volunteers but don’t know what to do with them.

Tish: I was just looking at your post on Peek too.

Nathan: Yeah… fortunately that is a completely  “for profit” gig.  But I like the company a lot, and think their spirit of providing access to email at a very low cost plays well with the non-profit world.

Tish: So it isn’t just iphone apps that are paying the bills?

Nathan: Nope. iPhone is just an aspect. Everyone is so obsessed with it and how to strike it rich quick, but in the greater scheme of things, there is a huge ecosystem of mobility out there for you to find a niche in, if you are looking.

Tish: Are you able to monetize your work on Android yet?

Nathan: here and there… releasing some for pay apps soon, also including “free” Android ports in some high-profile iPhone apps we hope to have out soon. Some successful iPhone app developers are looking for people to port their apps to Android, as well.

gReporter – opensource, geotagging, media capture report client

Tish: So what are your hopes for Android development in general and your gReporter app in particular?

Nathan: I think Android represents right now what Linux on desktops did in 99 or 00  Though as we all know, cycles of technology seem to speed up. There is huge interest in it at the academic level and there is also a genuine interest in its use by non-profit/development agencies working around the globe.

You have to jump through hoops to get an unlocked, open iPhone w/o contract. Android provides an alternative solution to this, that acts more like a true platform, and not just a consumer product.

Tish: At the moment the Android market place is only for free apps right?

Nathan: No, it now supports paid apps. I just bought one today for $2.99

Tish: What did you buy?

Nathan: An app that allows me to turn my G1 phone into a WiFi hotspot sharing my 3G connection to anyone who connects.

Tish: So what are the most important aspects of Android in your view?

Nathan: There are  two sites to help demonstrate what is really going on with Android that makes it significant

1) Open Intents – this is the ecosystem of developers, all creating services and apps that interoperate, share data, and generally build a very rich Microsoft style platform:
except all these are open-source and built by lots of small developers and not one big corporation.

2) Android on HTC – this is the home for all the efforts to port Android to pre-existing HTC/XDA mobile phone hardware. You can see the status of ports here: http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Android_devices  Imagine… taking an old Windows Mobile HTC phone, and then popping in an SD card that reformats it over to Android brand new phone!  For much of Asia, India and Africa, there is huge interest in this.

Tish: Nice! You mentioned earlier that you are thinking of doing SDK for the android sensor API’s?

Nathan: That would be part of the geo report app… expanding it to capture all sensing data and report that when you submit your text, photo or audio report.  Right now it just detects your lat and lon, but no reason it couldn’t also check your compass, altitude and whatever other data the device might offer.

Tish: So what will your geo report do now?

Nathan: It allows you to submit a text, photo or audio report, tagged with geo coordinates, timestamp, and basic user info (name, email, home location, etc) to whatever server it is configured to us. it is the latest release of code used for the TwitterVoteReport and InaugurationReport efforts.

There is also just a lot to learn or use from the code itself, which is available at: http://github.com/natdefreitas/georeport-android

Lots of little lessons learned packaged up into a functioning application

Tish: How many sensor APIs does android have?

Nathan: http://developer.android.com/reference/android/hardware/SensorManager.html

int SENSOR_ACCELEROMETER A constant describing an accelerometer.
int SENSOR_ALL A constant that includes all sensors
int SENSOR_DELAY_FASTEST get sensor data as fast as possible
int SENSOR_DELAY_GAME rate suitable for games
int SENSOR_DELAY_NORMAL rate (default) suitable for screen orientation changes
int SENSOR_DELAY_UI rate suitable for the user interface
int SENSOR_LIGHT A constant describing an ambient light sensor Only the first value is defined for this sensor and it contains the ambient light measure in lux.
int SENSOR_MAGNETIC_FIELD A constant describing a magnetic sensor See SensorListener for more details.
int SENSOR_MAX Largest sensor ID
int SENSOR_MIN Smallest sensor ID
int SENSOR_ORIENTATION A constant describing an orientation sensor.
int SENSOR_ORIENTATION_RAW A constant describing an orientation sensor.
int SENSOR_PROXIMITY A constant describing a proximity sensor Only the first value is defined for this sensor and it contains the distance between the sensor and the object in meters (m)
int SENSOR_STATUS_ACCURACY_HIGH This sensor is reporting data with maximum accuracy
int SENSOR_STATUS_ACCURACY_LOW This sensor is reporting data with low accuracy, calibration with the environment is needed
int SENSOR_STATUS_ACCURACY_MEDIUM This sensor is reporting data with an average level of accuracy, calibration with the environment may improve the readings
int SENSOR_STATUS_UNRELIABLE The values returned by this sensor cannot be trusted, calibration is needed or the environment doesn’t allow readings
int SENSOR_TEMPERATURE A constant describing a temperature sensor Only the first value is defined for this sensor and it contains the ambient temperature in degree centigrade.
int SENSOR_TRICORDER A constant describing a Tricorder When this sensor is available and enabled, the device can be used as a fully functional Tricorder.
float STANDARD_GRAVITY
with a few easter eggs as well
GRAVITY_DEATH_STAR_I
SENSOR_TRICORDER

Nathan: They are all in the API however, there isn’t hardware to support all of them yet… for instance TEMPERATURE is not yet supported
nor is LIGHT.

Tish: and errr what is gravity_deathstar

Nathan: It is a value representing the fictional gravity on the Death Star from Star Wars – geek humour

Tish: That makes me think of this great essay by Julian Bleeker, Design Fiction: A Short Essay on Design Science, Fact and Fiction:

“When you trace the knots that link science, fact and fiction you see the fascinating crosstalk between and amongst ideas and their materialization. In the tracing you see the simultaneous knowledge-making activities, speculating and pondering and realizing that things are made only by force of the imagination. In the midst of the tangle, one begins to see that fact and fiction are productively indistinguishable.“

Picture below is Nathan playing his dream ukulele – designed using the free, open-source Inkscape vector drawing tool (see his open-source Ukulele plans here)
See Nathan’s blog for the whole story of how the Flying V Rockin’ Ukulele Design he posted to Thingiverse a few weeks ago, after being inspired by Bre Pettis’ talk at ROFLThang materialized at the  NYC Resistor “amazing workshop laboratory in Brooklyn where they let anyone come over and hang out at, to learn how to make, build and fabricate pretty much anything. They also have a laser (aka “LAAAZZZOOOR”) which you can think of as an automagic thing cutter-outer!”

so this….

became this …

Nathan and David presented Coovents at NYTM – Mobile Meets Social. They had a large group of questioners surrounding them (see picture below).   I talked to David after the presentation.

David Oliver was a software architect, user experience designer and product manager in the areas of mobile/wireless and electronic payment at IBM for over a decade.  Most recently, he lead the effort to productize a mobile client for IBM’s Lotus Connections enterprise social networking suite.  As a software architect, David was often technical lead for IBM’s business partner relationships with mobile device manufacturers.  Prior to IBM, David was co-founder of the Internet’s first “micropayments” company, Clickshare.

Talking with David Oliver

Tish Shute: How are smart phones are causing us to rethink what networked online relationships are all about.

David Oliver: You know these [mobile] devices are .. there’s a long time we tried to pitch that we’re going to treat them like they’re PC’s, or they’re just like anything else. But they’re really not. It may be the same coding style but the way you think about using them is entirely different. And the way you think about your program. so if you use html, java and that kind of stuff, yes it’s same code type but the way you think about it is entirely different. And to me these little devices make what you said [relationships inherently about who YOU are, WHERE you are, WHAT you are doing, WHAT is around you, etc.] a lot more possible than a PC. because in a PC you almost have to sit in front of it and like it controls you. But the device is so little and there’s almost no user interface by comparison. You got to be very smart how you build something so that it’s almost invisible. And of course that’s the beauty of the iphone, Apple will tell you. The idea of ubiquitous computing. Ubiquitous what? Am I really computing? I don’t feel like I’m computing. I feel like I’m interacting or something.

I think twitter is very cool. The real way it’s cool is that there’s no required client. You can access Twitter any way you want.  You can imagine other ways to use it. Tweet Deck happens to be a nice for now. What I like about Twitter is, if you give it a tiny bit of thought, the Twitter network’s complete white noise, just like the internet itself. If you put a probe on the internet it’s all white noise, it’s all unordered packets. It makes no sense. So it’s cool that Twitter is at the level of little bitty conversations, but collectively all white noise. Totally meaningless white noise.  There’s some neat things going on, but I think we haven’t seen barely the first of what you can do with Twitter.

The way I see it is it’s like instant messaging where you don’t instant message to someone you instant message to the network and there are listeners. So normally in the old world of IM like AOL IM I would say Tish let’s talk and I kind of like grab you. Then it’s a narrow pipe you to me. You can add a few people in and make a little group, and that makes a bit of a closed network. But with twitter you just like talk into the air as if I were standing over there and you had a twitter client here, we could have the same interview. Because I would be watching you OH I see Tish’s question. I’d be over there talking  and you’d be picking me up over here. I’ts like you’re talking into white noise, like at this bar. You choose to hear me, this guy is not choosing to hear me right now.

Tish Shute: So what does Android bring to the party?

David Oliver: They have the notion that you have a telephone platform that’s open, and that everybody can use. And it’s got a variety of sensor data – not just location but also accelerometer and compass and more.  So in theory you can almost broadcast that data. It’s connected to a network. It’s easy, open API’s to get at that data. But the question is who are you going to broadcast it to or who are you sending it to. What are they going to do with it? How are you going to control it, and make sure people don’t misuse it? As you heard with the services tonight, there’s a central kind of service necessary to filter and rebroadcast that stuff back out to places that need it, or can use it, or you want to have use it. I think the mobile device is only one piece of this. Nat and I always talk about well we do mobile applications but a portion of it is on the server. And coordinating with the people or the group or the central resource that brings all this data together.

Tish Shute: There seems to be a lot of new location based services – platforms to aggregate location based data being developed (e.g. xtify and viaplace). What do you think about the direction this development is going in?

David Oliver: It’s not conventional wisdom but it’s one of these things where when a crowd of people does something, and that means people themselves are the service providers,  when they all get together the net effect is greater that the individual effect would be. Pooling together makes more sense than doing it individually. Its a little bit like an advanced version of you have to have a password for every single site and you manage your passwords. Location is the same way. If you had to give every single website that you enjoyed your location data or tell them how to get it, what a huge pain. So they’re offering a way to do that in a more general sense. There are humongous privacy issues though. Just like passwords. Would you really trust a place that held all your passwords centrally?

Even with the most basic level of calling. Now that you can call from anywhere. Largely people are getting into a mode where their mobile phone is them. It’s always with them. That’s how you reach me. Forget the home phone, the work phone it’s just a mobile phone. You have an address attached to you, an address I can reach you at that’s location independent. So there some beauty in that and it’s very freeing. It makes your location unimportant, you can call me anywhere. You can text me anywhere, message me anywhere. You can be anonymous. My son told me something recently. “I love going to New York City because I can just walk around and nobody knows me. I’m completely anonymous. That’s the coolest thing”, he says. At one level that is a good thing and a lot of good things can happen that way. But this new thing is sort of the flip side where everybody knows your location. And we haven’t figured out if that’s a good thing yet. But we’re in the throes of that whole changeover happening. And we’ll see. There’ll be some misuse. I’m not an advertising guy, so the fact that everything’s got to be ad supported makes it potentially very creepy and very dangerous. So we’ll see how that evolves.

Is there any model where you can go “Oh this is just like ‘S’”? I don’t see where that’s possible. It’s a new world. Where you’re exposed all the time, potentially. And how do you figure out either as an individual or a larger group, society or whatever, when that works and when that doesn’t. And you know there’s going to be some mis-steps probably. But the tangibility creates some of these interesting opportunities, there are just some amazing things that could happen, really, really good things. But we’re not going to get there in one step.

One of the things that was really a killer for privacy and a killer for in some ways the internet, was during the dot com bust. Prior to the bust, there were web sites that you’d given your name and email, and they said “we promise to preserve this privacy.” But as soon as those companies went bankrupt, their email list was gold. It was value. And a bankruptcy judge, in a court in Delaware, created a legal basis to sell that data. Those things that were formerly private were no longer private – “no no no that’s got value. I’m going to sell it so the shareholders get their money.” So all these web sites who had lists of user names that they promised were private, became public information. That was one of the biggest blows to privacy in the history of the internet. That’s going to happen again and again. Like if MeetMoi goes out of business the likelihood is all your shit’s going to get sold. I’m sorry it’s all going to be sold. It’s all a big joke. And that’s why central services are horrid, and I don’t like anything about a central service.

There are some pragmatic things about the way routing on networks actually works and the fact that the internet has gotten very centralized itself. The core ideas of the early internet which were essentially a survivable telecommunications network, remember it was the defense department that did the original internet? So the original idea of the original internet was survivability. The Russians could bomb the daylights out of the United States, territorial U.S. and we would still have a survivable network. That was the idea. And therefore all the nodes were dispersed and did not count on each other, and could reroute. Well now one company UUNET or whatever they are they own the whole thing. And you can look up all their locations on some internet database. 18 well placed bombs and the whole internet goes down. That’s what happens over time.

Well the whole cloud thing is also kind of a myth. It’s a very neat sounding term, and some aspects of it are different and new. Nate and I do a lot of cloud computing, it’s all on Amazon.

But we’ve always had that. That’s called time sharing. Strictly speaking it’s a thin contractual accompanied by a much much much easier application programming interface. That’s what cloud computing is. It’s a very skinny contract. Timeshare was a  huge contract. Literally it’s legal and a little bit of API ease. It’s just timesharing. But at Amazon and the other ones too, you’re not responsible for your node going down. If it goes down, they push it somewhere else automatically. Your disk goes down. You’re not responsible for backing up your disk, it’s already on 14 copies on 8 continents. They do that. So it’s a higher level of service. Nate and I have this thing called slice host. And we’ll probably build some services on it, and if they get popular, it’s like a vending machine. You just drop in a dime, they give you another slice. No contract at all. It is growth and learning about old ideas. Like this whole idea of software as a service. The company called ADP Automatic Data Processing, who basically in short do payroll for everybody. It’s software as a service. It’s been going on since 1952 or something. It’s more like a reconception using modern tools. It’s like virtual worlds are a different thing. That’s a whole different beast.

Om Malik just wrote that he was surprised by the number of location-aware mobile services being launched in Austin, Texas, SXSW Festival this year in his post, “SXSW, Location Awareness Is The New Black.” I am not surprised.  The Mobile Meet Social, Tech Meetup in New York City in February was abuzz with new location aware applications and platforms for location based services.

I have been fortunate to attend a number of the key conferences this year. I am just back from ETech 2009 brimming with ideas and interviews for posts, and I am just catching up with publishing my interviews from Tools of Change 2009!  At TOC I did an interesting interview with Chris Brogan on how location awareness will change social media.  The web is flowing out into the world and questions of  who YOU are, WHERE you are, WHAT you are doing, WHAT is around you are becoming central to the rapidly emerging internetworked world.  TOC explored the digital future of books and heralded the transition of books into “everyware,” (see my interview with Adam Greenfield author of “Everyware: The Dawning of the Age of Ubiquitous Computing”).

There were many highlights for me at TOC 2009, including Nick Bilton’s keynote, “The Narrative is Changing: Sensors, Social Editors and the New Storytelling.” Nick developed some of these ideas further at ETech where I had the pleasure of playing Werewolf with Nick, Jane McGonigal, and many other ETech presenters and attendees. Nick is seated to the right of Jane (center) – click to enlarge. Jane is demonstrating the attitude of a werewolf to noobs to the game like me. Nick Bilton by the way is an accomplished werewolf (in case one day you find yourself as an innocent villager, seer, or healer defending yourself against him), for more photos of Werewolf at ETech see my Flickr stream.    Also see this excellent write up of Nick Bilton’s talk at ETech, “Sensors, Smart Content, and the Future of News,” by Richard MacManus.

Peter Brantley’s, “Literature as a (Web) Service,” talk at TOC also elaborated a theme, “literature as a service,” that was developed more broadly at ETech where Mike Kuniavsky of Thingm brilliantly presented on things as services (much more coming on this soon!).  Brantley, at TOC, concluded with an invocation for the future of machine parsed books.  And Bob Stein’s, “A Book is a Place”, Tim O’Reilly’s “Reasons to be Excited,” and Google’s  Jon Orwant’s update on Google’s quest for the holy grail, “converting images to original intent XML,” should not be missed (you can watch the videos here). Enjoying the serendipity particular to conferences,  I had a very inspiring long lunch conversation with  Ben Vershbow about “Books as Spimes” – more on this too soon!

Tim O’Reilly’s talks were inspiring at Tools of Change and ETech. His finger is on the pulse as always. Tim O’Reilly’s big vision is richly informed by  his own lived engagement with tools of change. Tim does not merely narrate how Twitter can facilitate publisher/curator relationships with authors and content, he is part of the evolution of Twitter as a publisher’s medium, through his own creative use. Also see these two key posts by O’Reilly Radar’s Joshua Michele-Ross on Forbes, The Rise of the Social Nervous System and a follow up by Tim,  The Social Nervous System Has More Than One Sense.

Tim’s  keynote for ETech is perhaps one of the best invocations and elaborations of a theme he has been developing in recent months – “work on stuff that matters” (see this excellent summary in Venture Beat).

In  my post, “Towards a Newer Urbanism: Talking Cities, Networks, and Publics with Adam Greenfield,” Adam makes some interesting comments on “the networked book” and  “unbooks.” Adam’s upcoming book, The City Is Here For You To Use,  is evolving as somewhat of an unbook.  Unbooks are, he writes:

“a container for long-form ideas appropriate to an internetworked age” and an approach that “can usefully harness the dynamic and responsive nature of discourse on the Web. At the same time, you preserve the things books are really good at: coherence, authorial voice and intent.”

Unbooks draw on lessons from the “open source” approach in software – version control, open-endedness to inform a collaborative development of books (this is an approach Usman Haque has taken to environments and cities – Urban Versioning System, for more see my interview with Usman here).

It seems fiiting that as I began writing this post an email came in from my friend Steve Fagin inviting me to The Last Book Project in LA, April 26th, 2009 – save the date.  Steve, is a brilliant artist, director, and impresario (please check out one of his early films, The Machine That killed Bad People, 1989 which was how I first became aquainted with his work).  Steve writes:

“Our vain glory is the attempt to resurrect the medieval illuminated manuscript through the invocation of our current alchemy, the new technologies, to conjure a future the past in reverse.”

The Last Book project’s illustrious team  include’s China’s “best bad girl novelist,” Mian Mian, as the reader of the Last Book.

The mobile phone is leading the charge into ubiquitious computing (although more immersive forms of experience will not be far behind (see my earlier post here). Note in Japan, “half the top selling books are WRITTEN on mobile phones.” While the “total spimy revolution isn’t here yet” – see “What Bruce Sterling Actually Said About Web 2.0 at Webstock 09,” we are blowing holes in “the spider’s web” of the end to end internet.

Since the NewYorkTech Meeetup – Mobile Meets Social, I have been thinking about the question: “How do timeliness and location-independence affect social media?”

This is a core question as David Oliver pointed out to me after the meetup (interview with David and Nathan Freitas upcoming).  David and Nathan are the principles of  Oliver + Coady a company focusing on Mobile/Social/Architecture  – also see Nathan’s blog for more.

At Tools of Change, I had the opportunity to talk with the social media guru and uber blogger Chris Brogan.

You can catch up on Chris’ TOC workshop, “Blogging and Social Media,” -  here (also see my Posterous here, “Smart Phones the Gateway Toy in Everyone’s Pocket”).

Interview with Chris Brogan

Tish Shute: I have been thinking about the question that David Oliver (principle of Oliver + Coady with Natahan Freitas) put to me: “How do timeliness and location-independence affect social media?” Mobility, is the key as David points out, NOT mobile as in a desktop in your hand, but timeliness (you do things when you need them) and location independence (you do things where you need them.

Chris Brogan: There’s a theory that I’ve been working on and I’ve typed a little bit into my blog from time to time where I call it ‘the secrets of the annotated world’. What I’m saying is, where I’ve experienced differences in Brightkite as applied to the iphone. When I first ever used Brightkite, I didn’t like it. The app didn’t do anything for me on the desktop. But when the iphone app came about, because it sucked my location off of my iphone, it said “can I tell people where you are?” And I’d say, “Why yes.” So what I’d do with it wasn’t so much talk to my friends and have a location element to it.  What I would do is I’d talk of the location. You know, “I’m at the Roger Smith hotel on 47th and Lex and they have a nice quaint little bar.”  And I would note, “try the pear fused gin.”

So what I’ve done is I’ve left a note in time and also in space. So now if another Brightkite user, and this is an example but I think this extrapolates to other places.. and I’ll think about a clearing house of space. What I think is that another Brightkite user who now comes somewhere near that space and who says what information, who said anything nearby where I am right now, will see I was at the Roger Smith Hotel, I had the pear fused gin it’s delicious. Oh! I like gin maybe I’ll try that. I think I’m helping put signposts up in space and time such that other people will come and read these glyphs that nobody else can see. And that’s sort of the imagery I have.

I think there’s an opportunity with this. One I think there’s an opportunity for this data to port across more places. I understand that in the data, if you own the customers then you own the future. But, if you don’t do it then somebody like Google will do it and I think that what will happen is Google maps will own this idea of you can add notes to a place. Google Local does this right now on the desktop,  so if I look up my local pizza place I now have would you like to write a review about it?  Would you add more info to the story?  And I thought, “wow this is getting there, except I still can’t see it nicely on my phone,” but now Google Locate arrives and now maybe I can.

So I think what it adds to social isn’t … Dodgeball tried awhile back and theirs is more like where are you, where are you, where are you. This is great if you’re a very mobile tribe, not everyone is. But from time to time we wander through different pieces of space and we would run across this information that would tie us more to the space. And so I’m passionate about how do I annotate and how do I maybe do more equipping. It’s interesting to me that Yelp as a restaraunt review product doesn’t have input from an iphone.  So in lieu of, I mean it lets me ask what reviews are up on the site, but in lieu of that  I can then put my restaurant reviews in Brightkite and then anyone can come find them based on time and space not based on a fixed site.

Tish Shute: I suppose it is hardly surprising (if disappointing to me) that some of the early location based services are trying to get mindshare by picking up on the glue celebrities give to mass culture. At the last New York Tech Meetup, OMGICU demoed a rather terrifying new pre-launch location based “participatory celebrity gossip application” which seems to combine all the worst features of social media with celebrity stalking, plus a narrative to change the notion of celebrity itself by “turning D listers into A listers.”

Chris Brogan: It raises a really interesting question because I’m willing to divulge my information freely. I’m not willing to divulge my family’s information. I don’t ever point out where they are in the world. One criticism that people have had when I use a product like Brightkite, is they’re saying you’re identifying that you’re not at your home. But I’m also telling people I’m not at conference. There’s lots of things, it’s not Brightkite telling them that. Its everything I do, it’s my blog. I’m not afraid of that. But I am interested in the negative impact of people doing that OMGICU thing because maybe I don’t want people to know I’m in Wyoming working with a client who maybe doesn’t want the world to know I’m working with them. It might be under non-disclosure. Or I might not want people to know which town exactly  I live in or where exactly my house is.

There’s some beautiful things that can be done on location, Wired had a big piece in their magazine about some location things. even that doesn’t get to the crux of the things I would do with it. Look at my analogy of annotating, I’ll put tags in the air that you’ll come and stumble across. Why can’t I find caches of these – like geocaching – why can’t I find caches of data that only exist in place. Why can’t I find data that’s … now I’m talking more like Gibson and Neuromancer.  But why can’t I find pods of data that can only be accessed by being in a locale.

Tish Shute: Have you seen Wikitude?  Something like Wikitude would be really great with some social tools.

Chris Brogan: Anywhere where it is possible to have all those hands raise up the load it is so much better because things get done faster, they get done more effectively. I am never going to get over to Williamsburg in Brooklyn and hang out there.  But if someone else was doing it I could always get the mapping, and I would know where I would want to hang out if I did. So I think these tools cry for this. The hint of this was in the Batman movie when he used eveyone’s phone to make a picture. The technology was obviously more vivid for a film sense.  But that is not unlike what we are doing with things like Twitter.

Tish Shute: One of the things I really like about Twitter is a a sense that i can drop in and out of the stream.  Is Twitter is the best current example of timeliness and social media?

Chris Brogan: I think that Twitter’s a great example, Twitter filters the noise out. If you search twitter, there’s a trending topics thing, that tells us now here are the top 6 trends going on at the moment. And so you can see when something surfaces that matters to you. Or you can search and try to aggregate.  So for example when the Australia fires story was breaking for a little while the only news you got was just links back to other peoples news. Then what we were searching for there was specifically this gentleman named Paul Mooney, and he was searching for first hand accounts. That was harder to get through twitter. But it’s almost like calling it out. It’s imagined in a game sense, we’re all in a big room, it’s almost like Marco Polo in the water. Maybe there’s 10 people and there’s one of us blind and he has to send out a ping, and all 10 ACK that they’re there somewhere. Well I think that the social meets presence type of things deal with, can you bubble that information up to me so that I hear it through the din and can you direct me to things that I shouldn’t normally have access to, that through my own senses cannot find.

Tish Shute: Without underestimating the value of social media  (as a blogger I owe much to social media), do you think though we need to develop different and more nuanced social tools as the web reaches out further into who YOU are, WHERE you are, WHAT you are doing, WHAT is around you?

Chris Brogan: There’s a lot to be said about the whole friends quote unquote equation  But I don’t understand, I mean believe me in the business sense I do, but I do not understand the amnesia that happens. When I go over and jump on any of those new services that you just showed me, I am now forced to go refind my friends. So the very first thing I need to do is cure my amnesia. Oh we’re friends here too? Oh I like that we’re friends. Why not here? Like open social but not like data portability. I need to carry my network with me. And another sort of future trend is that I also want private areas where it’s sort of the velvet rope social network, if you will. Right now we’re in the media area here. If we were doing this out in the hallway, then I’d get however many folk from that session. If we weren’t hitting the afternoon sessions, it’s say “Hey, great speech whatever or horrible speech I think you’re terrible.” We’d be bothered. So I think as we join the stalkerati, and as we know where everyone is all the time, we now often need a sort of “hush mode” that lets us go off and do some things in sort of small clusters.

The one number we’re up against is Dunbar’s number of 150 people. I’m fascinated by that because on twitter I have 40 thousand people, and I follow 36 thousand. I clearly don’t know what 36,000 people are doing. So what I’ve done instead, I’ve sort of wired a phone network. So I can ring you because I have this access to you, but I don’t always listen in on every conversation. Instead I dip in when I need to and otherwise I’ll wait until you come in. I use Tweet Deck like you do. I have one call in for @replies, I have one call in for my last name because sometimes people don’t form it right. And then direct messages and then the regular stream. The regular stream, I’ll see stuff go by and I’ll comment on as, but let’s just do quick math – 40 thousand people 1 percent of that is 400 people. 1 tweet each per day for 1 percent of my people would fill that screen for some time. So I can’t field all your conversations. But what I can do, as I demonstrated in my presentation, I use search a lot and I fall onto those conversations and then talk to people that way. So I’m using Twitter differently than most. And then the goal is to extrapolate that out until we find that there’s a bunch of journalists and people talking about journalism talking on this thing called journchat which is a Twitter group of people, and the only way to do that is to follow a tag. The beauty of such an option is in the way that the web could be TV, and still hasn’t in a meaningful way, in that I can deliver very exactly what someone wants to them. We don’t see the parity of that yet in a lot of spaces, and we haven’t really found the perfect ways to monetize the effort that’s there.

Clearly this is the magic. We were talking about this more than a decade ago. But it never came out the way we said. You were talking about the forward thinking part of it. I was in wireless technology for years. It just never was really there fast enough, and the reason was, of course, because the telco’s don’t really want to innovate. There’s no motivation to. They’re making money as it is. Telecoms adopted when VOIP looked like it was going to crush them. And so they absorbed it. and so they may or may not absorb location as a service. They might absorb presence as a service.

That’s my speech tomorrow. I stole most of my idea from Jeff Holver’s line. Jeff Holver said young people today bring their own dial tones with them. That means if you think of our US election, one person won and the other person lost. and the other person who lost was ringing everybody’s land line home phone numbers. And the person who won was on facebook and twitter and myspace and text messaging and all those sources. So dial tone as we understand it to make a telephone call is nothing like it used to be. When you call a home that’s where you call to ask a question. But that’s not, I mean I have a cell phone, my wife has a cell phone, there’s a land line but we never pick up the land line because it’s usually some calling about a bill we didn’t pay. So we listen to the message, pay the bill and we’re done.

Tish Shute: I have to ask you this as you are THE expert on the business of social media, how will people make money out these new services?

Chris Brogan: Honestly I’m really surprised that more of these things aren’t willing to try a subscription model. At the volume I use twitter, I mentioned if I do one tweet a day it goes out to 40000 people. So every time I do that it writes 40K records in 40K different accounts if you think of it as a database. Twitter technically should charge me. Maybe there’s other services they can offer in sort of a premium model, so there’s a free to premium kind of a plan. That’s how companies can make the money. I don’t know when we stopped feeling like we should pay for software.

I don’t know that we know just yet but I don’t think that there’s a business model for the phone except for subscription. So if twitter is to be the new phone it’s a subscription product. But you know, the iphone store, there’s people selling 99 cent to 5 dollar product and it’s going well. I’ve bought 6 apps now.

I think as we’re defining the etiquette and as we’re starting to understand how social platforms in general do and don’t work. I think what we’re finding is that people are having to relearn their business communications skills, not their marketing or their sales skills, because the old ways that we were trying to market were getting more and more frenetic, and getting more pushy, and more and more the walls came up and no one wanted to pay attention anymore. That’s where we are as a group in the western world for the most part. So now what we’re doing is we’re rediscovering relationships. I’ve talked to people from Tyson Foods. Why should I ever care about a company that sells chicken nuggets, except that I have a small child. So I’m finding conversations like that all the time. I think that’s what’s going to happen. I think there’s sales there. I think the problem is that the numbers are a little more wiley.  And I think that the numbers are a little more hops down the stream instead of direct. I can argue till the cows come home that you buying a post card and shipping out to a pile of people isn’t worth the money. But you at least can say well I got 45 sales out of those 5 thousand post cards that cost me this much. I got 45 sales and that numbers higher than this number, we did well.

Tish: I can see you are being called to your next meeting. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my questions!